[22:00:21] Okay, it's 22:00:20 GMT :) [22:00:37] I'd like to welcome everybody to the 2003 Debian Project Leader election debate (IRC portion). [22:00:47] My name is David B. Harris, and I'm your moderator this evening. [22:01:03] We have all four candidates; Bdale Garbee, Branden Robinson, Martin Michlmayr, and Moshe Zadka. [22:01:20] To give a quick rundown to those who haven't been following the announcements, the debate will proceed as thus: [22:01:26] 1) The candidates will be asked a question, and given a time limit. [22:01:38] 2) The candidates will be asked to post their answers. [22:02:08] 3) If there are any questions for the candidates about their responses, ask them in #debian-dpl-discuss. If they're appropriate, you'll be asked to ask them again in here after receiving voice. [22:02:18] 4) The candidates may, at their option, critique each others' responses. [22:02:38] Candidates, are you all ready? [22:02:42] yes [22:02:46] yes [22:02:46] dbharris: question [22:02:47] yes [22:02:50] BdaleGarbee: Fire away. [22:03:02] dbharris: so, your expectation is that we'll compose offline and then paste here when the time is up and you ask us to? [22:03:23] BdaleGarbee: You may compose it in any way you like. Personally, I prefer 'cat > /dev/null' at a shell, and then pasting my answers :) [22:03:47] dbharris: ok, there was just enough discussion about a bot or something to be mildly confusing. I get it... and I'm ready. [22:03:55] BdaleGarbee: No probs, the bot wasn't ready in time. [22:04:05] Okay, first question. You have two minutes to compose your answers: [22:04:09] If you're elected, what would you most like your term to be remembered for? [22:05:51] 20 seconds left. [22:06:10] Okay, candidates, post your answers. [22:06:12] I'd like to be remembered for fulfilling some of the promise of our [22:06:13] Constitutional system of government, for helping reduce tensions within the [22:06:13] Project, for encouraging and staying out of the way of success, for [22:06:13] surprising my critics with the good job I did. :) [22:06:18] Steady progress. [22:06:19] I want to be remembered for establishing good communication and [22:06:19] coordination. I think that it is essential that all the coordination [22:06:20] World peace. But like many things, this is not under the DPL's powers. If the qu [22:06:20] estion was "how would you like your DPLhood to be remembered", my answer is "not [22:06:21] interfering with people doing useful stuff". [22:06:22] efforts in Debian are better coordinated than they are now. As such, I [22:06:23] While it may be easier to see and judge individual acts, the Debian project [22:06:24] and community is bigger than any of us, and what really matters is that we [22:06:24] continue to make progress towards a vision. What I'm proudest of in the last [22:06:24] year is the large number of times I was able to motivate or encourage someone [22:06:24] or some activity in a small way. [22:06:25] will try to do meta-coordination, as mentioned in my platform. I want to [22:06:28] communicate between developers, users and upstream. It's vital to get [22:06:31] everyone involved, and to coordinate all the different pieces. I'd like to [22:06:34] motivate people. [22:06:51] this is pretty difficult to follow, maybe the moderator should prompt each candidate in turn? :( [22:06:52] Okay, we'll give the people in -discuss a bit to read over the answers. [22:07:05] yes, what Branden said. [22:07:15] Yeah, I'll do that. [22:08:05] Okay, for the responses... [22:08:13] Everybody /msg your responses to EElf. [22:08:18] I'll paste them when the time's ready. [22:08:21] acknowledged [22:08:43] (There's just no way to do it without giving the last people a chance to modify their answers based on the really great idea the first person had ;) [22:08:56] Okay, nobody has any questions. [22:09:06] Would any of the candidates like to critique somebody's response? [22:09:23] yes [22:09:29] MosheZadka: Okay, go ahead. [22:09:33] not I [22:09:33] (We can get to other people in turn.) [22:09:36] Try to keep it shortish. [22:10:10] I feel that most of the candidates wish to be remembered for things that are largely equivalent to "World Peace", as far as their connection to the DPL's powers is. [22:10:28] Anybody else? [22:10:35] can we rebut that? :) [22:10:47] Just make it quick :) [22:10:56] If you guys want to go ahead and argue to death, that's your prerogative. [22:10:59] (It'll be quite telling.) [22:11:06] But you've got 10 seconds. [22:11:08] I don't think that's an accurate reading of the other 3 statements, that's all. :) [22:11:11] [22:11:14] Okay, next question. [22:11:35] You have two minutes to answer the following question: [22:11:36] Do you see Debian as having a specific target audience now or in the future? If so, could you describe it? [22:11:43] (Remember to /msg you responses to "EElf") [22:13:25] Okay, 10 seconds. [22:13:37] Last call :) [22:13:46] I really like the way of thinking of Debian as the Universal Operating [22:13:46] System. In the past, I thought we'd have to specialize, but with all the [22:13:46] effort going into Debian by different people, we could truly achieve being [22:13:46] the Universal OS. As such, there would not be one specific target [22:13:46] audience, but several. We are certainly the OS of the community, that's [22:13:47] for sure. [22:13:56] I don't see Debian as having a specific target audience, no. We're the [22:13:56] Universal Operating System. Potentially, everyone in the world is part of [22:13:56] our audience. People who care in particular about freedom and good [22:13:57] software make up a large proportion of our actual audience, though. [22:14:01] No. My articulation last year of a vision of Debian as a Universal Operating [22:14:01] System accurately suggests that I think Debian can be different things to [22:14:01] different people. My attention to the concept of flavors this year is one [22:14:01] way in which I think this can be instantiated usefully. Debian can and will [22:14:01] be the sum of the things that people working on Debian want it to be, and are [22:14:01] willing to implement. [22:14:05] osheZadka> My hopes is that eventually, a tech support person will be asking "What version of Debian are you using?" I don't see why there is any audience which should not be using Debian. [22:15:01] note that by saying "tech person" you do limit the audience already, however. [22:15:12] (re MosheZadka) [22:15:16] why was my nick cut? [22:15:17] Anybody else have any comments :) [22:15:22] MosheZadka: Just a bad paste, my apologies. [22:15:28] I'd just like to observe that the Debian website advertised our OS as the Universal Operating System before Bdale made it campaign plank. [22:15:31] ;-) [22:15:44] This is vicious :) [22:15:47] Okay, next question. [22:16:02] Three minutes, do provide explanation: [22:16:03] If you couldn't vote for yourself, for whom would you vote? [22:17:29] just for whom I'd vote first or in which order? [22:17:35] ie. can I mention more than one [22:18:00] MartinMichlmayr: If you want to take the time... [22:18:10] MartinMichlmayr: (But in the interests of brevity, I would suggest you just pick your second choice.) [22:18:20] A little less than 60 seconds remaining. [22:18:44] 20 seconds. [22:19:02] 3 seconds. [22:19:04] Okeydokey. [22:19:05] Last call. [22:19:19] BdaleGarbee: Just in the nick of time. [22:19:23] I can't answer that; I think I'd climb back into a time machine and [22:19:23] convince some more people to nominate themselves as DPL candidates. [22:19:23] I think all of the current candidates have their good points, so I'd [22:19:23] probably rank each of them [ 1 ]. Or maybe [ 2 ] after None of the Above. [22:19:23] (No, I don't honestly feel that no DPL would better than any of them, [22:19:23] though it *would* be a way to re-open the nomination period.) [22:19:28] I would vote for Martin Michelmayr. While my platform is diametrically opposed to his, I trust that he will work with the delegates and make sure they are doing their job, and I know he has enough experience to avoid interfering where he is not wanted. [22:19:31] My first vote would go to Bdale. I think that Bdale has a clear vision for [22:19:31] Debian and has the reputation to actually bring his vision across. I [22:19:31] believe that Branden has good ideas, but I fear that he won't be effective [22:19:31] in actually implementing them. This is because his personal issues he has [22:19:32] had with many other developers. [22:19:36] I think any of the other candidates would be capable of holding the office, [22:19:36] and I don't think any of them would be likely to cause the project to fall [22:19:36] apart or anything like that if elected. [22:19:36] I see many things in Martin's platform and his accomplishments for the project [22:19:36] that suggest he and I consider many of the same things about the project as [22:19:37] important, so I suspect he'd get my vote. [22:20:12] Candidates, respond to each other if you want :) [22:20:44] well, I certainly agree with Bdale and Moshe :-P [22:20:59] BrandenRobinson: cop-out, dude [22:21:06] And I'm fairly sure I will not disappoint them. [22:21:26] * BdaleGarbee chuckles [22:21:27] BdaleGarbee: since I was #2 behind you last year, it would be bad tactics for you to endorse me. You're not stupid. ;-) [22:21:48] For those who are unaware, Debian's voting procedure involves ranking each candidate, 1 being the highest, 4 being the lowest. [22:21:57] just like the real ballot [22:22:00] You can give more than one person the same number, giving a tie in that position. [22:22:05] dbharris: don't forget the all-important "none of the above"! [22:22:16] So when BrandenRobinson says [ 1 ], he means "I would give the other three the same vote". [22:22:29] Okeydokey. [22:22:38] Everybody understood those answers; next question: [22:22:50] 60 seconds: [22:22:54] Why doesn't Debian offer packages that run under Windows? [22:23:59] Okay, time's up. [22:24:03] Why would we? Debian is about Free Software... and Windows doesn't qualify. [22:24:05] I'm not sure I understand the questions. How would packages that run under Windows make a free OS? Certainly, if Wine achieves stability, I see no reason to package free programs that run under Wine. [22:24:13] woops, sorry :( [22:24:24] MosheZadka: Well, good enough. :) [22:24:37] Actually, there are some efforts underway to do this. However, I don't [22:24:37] think it should be officially endorsed because Debian has always stood for [22:24:37] Free Software and we should keep it this way. Porting Debian packages to a [22:24:37] non-free core might be useful for some people (for example those you have [22:24:37] to use it at work), but should not be supported by the project as a whole. [22:24:38] Instead, we should make Debian a real alternative to Windows. [22:24:45] Branden declined to answer. [22:24:46] what?> [22:24:54] what was the time limit on that one!? [22:24:57] BrandenRobinson: 60 seconds. [22:24:59] bah [22:25:00] BS [22:25:05] I thought I had 2 minutets [22:25:07] that was way too fast :-P [22:25:13] BrandenRobinson: Sorry :) [22:25:43] Okay, next question: (That one was unpopular. :) [22:26:03] Two minutes for the following question: [22:26:04] Would you have any objections with the various packages required for LSB compliance being installed as part of the base distribution? [22:27:34] 30 seconds. [22:27:56] 10 seconds. [22:28:07] Okay, all the answers are in: [22:28:11] No, not at all. I think that it is vital that Debian follows the LSB and [22:28:11] I think it's quite sad that woody is not there yet. I will certainly [22:28:11] encourage such efforts, however, and talk to the Stable RM. [22:28:14] No. I'm not sure offhand what technical issues that might pose, if any, but [22:28:14] it was fairly easy for us to achieve LSB compliance after woody shipped, and [22:28:14] it would be a fairly strong statement of support for open standards (vs de [22:28:14] facto standards imposed by commercial distributions) if we did something like [22:28:15] that. [22:28:18] It depends a lot on what that would entail in technical terms, and would also depend on which parts of the LSB we would be talking about. This question is more subtle than it appears, and deserves to be discussed in the appropriate technical forums. [22:28:21] Another technical question, so best left up to Developer consensus. [22:28:21] However, I'm not sure that would be a good idea, as the LSB specifies stuff [22:28:21] like Xlib, and this could make the base system larger than it needs to be [22:28:22] for many people's deployment goals. [22:28:41] Feel free to critique each others' answers while we wait to make sure no further clarifications are needed. [22:29:19] I think that having LSB compliance for what *is* in the base system would probably be an uncontroversial goal. [22:29:31] compliant kernel, libc, etc. [22:29:33] One clarification: it's not clear off-hand how much space LSB compliance means. I think the question should not have mented "base". [22:29:34] the definition of "base" is a bit loose here... making sure Debian 'standard' and higher priority packages when installed constituted an LSB compliance installation might be more technically interesting. [22:29:44] However, in generally, I think we should try to be LSB compliant. [22:29:52] Good good. [22:30:04] I want to critique the question: it's a silly question for a DPL debate. Any DPL who would try to use his power to force resolution here one way or another would be stupid. [22:30:37] MosheZadka: The question, specifically, asked whether or not the candidate would have any objections to it, not whether or not they'd be willing to force the issue. [22:30:51] MosheZadka: (That being said, I imagine there are language barriers here, so I'll try and adjust the questions to be a bit more obvious in the future.) [22:31:00] Moving on, then. [22:31:21] You have 3 minutes to answer the following question: [22:31:43] Pretty much everybody agrees that a primary responsibility of the DPL is to represent Debian to the press. What steps, if any, do you believe should be taken to increase Debian's profile in technical and non-technical press? Why? [22:33:43] 60 seconds. [22:34:24] 20 seconds. [22:34:48] And that's it. [22:34:54] Establish good relationships with the press, especially those who take [22:34:54] the trouble to contact *you* as DPL. Follow up with them promptly, and [22:34:54] try to instill in them some of the enthusiasm that I have for the Debian [22:34:54] Project. [22:34:54] Debian could pay for press releases if we needed to, and in fact I think [22:34:54] Bruce Perens did that (out of his own pocket) when announcing that [22:34:55] Debian was flying on the Space Shuttle several years ago. [22:34:59] I think Debian's public image is pretty good. We're represented in almost all major conferences, and many web sites and dead trees journals cover us. That being said, I will make sure that in any conference where a Debian Developer wants to speak about Debian, he'll be able to do so in "official capacity", since these things seem to matter to the press. [22:35:09] My experience over the last year is that the "press" mostly notices and covers [22:35:09] "events". Releases, presence at trade shows, participation in working groups [22:35:09] or joining a consortium. It's hard to influence that kind of coverage much [22:35:09] other than continuing to do what we do. [22:35:09] What I'd like to see, and what might really help our reputation as a project, [22:35:09] is for more people to be writing and submitting articles about good things [22:35:09] they have done with Debian in a broader range of venues. I've encouraged [22:35:09] various people in the last year to write things up, submit talk proposals to [22:35:09] conferences, and things like that in addition to doing a lot of it myself... [22:35:10] and I think it does get noticed and make a difference in our level of [22:35:14] (Boy, that's a long response.) [22:35:25] I think that it's vital to have more press work done. While we often have [22:35:25] important announcements to make, it often doesn't get done because of [22:35:25] limited resources. Joey is doing a great job, but we need more people who [22:35:25] are willing to draft press releases. Furthermore, I think the DPL should [22:35:25] talk to journalists about important issues and give interviews. I'm very [22:35:25] willing to do that and have some experience in that area, having given [22:35:25] interviews before and having worked as an editor in the past. [22:35:54] ds-work_ asks, "how much does a press release cost?" [22:36:22] acceptance in the larger community. [22:36:37] BdaleGarbee: Right, thanks. [22:36:41] np [22:36:45] That was a very long response. :) [22:36:52] sorry, I type fast... ;-) [22:36:54] I don't know how much a press release costs -- it probably depends on the wire service. I can easily find out at work. [22:37:00] BdaleGarbee: It's all good. [22:37:20] Okay, if nobody has any comments, I'll move on to the next question: [22:37:27] nonono [22:37:29] it depends on the target audience... we can reach a lot of media outlets for free electronically. [22:37:31] I have comments [22:37:37] MosheZadka: Go ahead :) [22:38:07] This is a debate, you guys should feel free to pick apart each others' responses. [22:38:16] Bdale: true, even traffic to debian-announce is not exactly overwhelming. There are many channels we could use, potentially. [22:38:26] I want to comment on Bdale's response, and say that I agree that more articles about Debian by people who worked with it are wonderful, and that I hope he will continue to write and encourage the writing of them even if he is not elected DPL. [22:38:56] dbharris: I wanted to let people answer the followup :) [22:38:59] I guess I can also note in passing that I *did* respond to a number of interview requests in the last year... [22:40:08] Moppet_ has a followup, if you don't mind: [22:40:13] what level of press attention should debian be getting, e.g. as compared to the commercial Linux vendors? [22:40:20] ("ideally", one would presume.) [22:40:26] As much as possible, of course :) [22:40:35] As much, if not more since we represent the whole community. [22:40:39] I posted some thoughts on this subject to debian-vote today; I'd urge people to check it out. [22:40:51] If it was up to me, the newspaper would be filled with nothing but Debian-coverage articles...sadly, I'm not the editor of any major newspaper. [22:40:57] ideally, they'd completely ignore commercial vendors. ;-) it'll never happen that way, though, because most news outlets that cover technology are interested in the business of technology, not the technology itself... or so it seems to me. [22:41:06] Nobody feels it might be safer for Debian to stay in the background, working on the infrastructure that everybody else uses? [22:41:18] BdaleGarbee: I think you mean proprietary vendors; there's nothing wrong with commercial vendors. [22:41:19] Not me. [22:41:30] MartinMichlmayr: the press doesn't make the distinction. [22:41:31] I think Debian deserves a day in the sun or two. [22:41:43] I want any interesting "use" of Debian to be folded back into Debian -- just as we try to fold our patches upstream [22:41:54] BdaleGarbee: some do, and I think we should educate others. [22:42:01] BdaleGarbee: well, there is always time to explain such things. [22:42:07] Without getting all RMS about it, of course ;-) [22:42:21] heh [22:42:24] Okeydokey :) [22:42:26] Next question? [22:42:31] yes [22:42:54] Do you have any comments about the process that new maintainers undergo? Specifically with respect to any perceived opacity of the process. [22:42:58] (Take two minutes.) [22:44:19] 40 seconds :) [22:44:50] 10 seconds. [22:45:00] All in :) [22:45:07] The Debian Account Manager seems to be an incredibly sore spot with some [22:45:07] people, and with several respondents to my questionnaire. [22:45:07] I will need to ascertain if this remains a problem, and talk with the [22:45:07] DAM about various issues: whether the DAM team needs to be expanded, [22:45:07] what needs of his aren't being met by the Account Managers or Front Desk [22:45:07] (if any), what feels a reasonable time frame for feedback to an [22:45:07] applicant on account creation status is, whether he feels that the role [22:45:07] of DAM as it relates to the NM process is mostly a mechanical, [22:45:07] procedural one, or whether the DAM is expected to enagage in critical [22:45:07] review of the applicant, and so forth. [22:45:07] The DAM may be receiving a lot of grief for justified reasons, and/or [22:45:07] because he is an obvious and convenient target for gripes. My job as [22:45:07] DPL is to separate the wheat from the chaff of these complaints, and [22:45:07] find out what I can do to make the DAM's job easier. [22:45:07] As with the Release Manager, the first thing to do with a delegate is [22:45:07] *talk* to them. More importantly, in fact, *listen* to them. [22:45:07] Blowing into office with a long list of "firings", or with a laundry [22:45:07] list of unverified complaints with which one lambastes the current [22:45:07] delegates is not only impolite but dumb. Demoralized or angry delegates [22:45:07] are unlikely to do a good job, and I think it's obvious how much gets [22:45:07] done in an unfilled position (which is of course the result if one fires [22:45:12] Well, I always thought the process is fine. We give a lot of responsibility to Debian Developers (effective root on all Debian machines and on all machines that run Debian), and I think we have to make sure we do not hand that privilege to someone who will misuse it, intentionally or otherwise. [22:45:29] The process is fairly complex and thus prone to all kinds of defects. Most [22:45:29] people see the DAM as the big issue, but there are often more problems that [22:45:29]